A Word on the Talmud

The following contribution is

by “Hoss Cartwright”

For what it’s worth, here is a small piece on my experience with the Talmud, and a couple of graphics.

I mentioned that HWA should have used Talmud in his research. Ralph commented about a book that paralleled the Talmud with Paul’s letters. I’ve heard of a few books that make similar analyses, for example, showing Jesus as a typical Jewish rabbi.

While part of the Talmud is the written version of the Oral Law (and that’s a whole kettle of gefilte fish) it contains collection of Torah commentary, which I heard described as a “600 year long Bible study”.

Part of the Talmud derives 613 commandments, positive commands (thou shalt) and negative commands (thou shalt not) from the Torah. How many times had “God changes not!” been used by HWA to show we should keep a select, modified subset of the Law? Why were we told not eat unclean meat, but not told to wear tzitzis (tassels)? Both laws appear in the Torah as equally binding. The overseer of a new COG once wrote he would, time permitting, analyze each of the 613 commandments and tell us which ones we must still keep, and which were no longer required. There was a time when that would have put him between a bunch of rocks and a hard place, and Jesus’ comment on those who teach breaking “the least of my commandments.”

“Binding and loosening” was not authority given to Apostles to change laws; it gave authority to make judgements on how laws apply. Pharisees had their Halachah (“walk”) that determined how they kept each law; Jesus accepted some of these customs and rejected others. For example, giving thanks before a meal was a Pharisaic tradition, in addition to the biblically-implied command is to give thanks after a meal. He rejected ritual hand washing before eating bread, and pointed out the “Biblical incorrectness” of abuses of Korban (Offering).

In Paul’s dealing with Gentiles, circumcision most likely referred to ritual conversion to Judaism, which the Talmud called the “Eighteen Measures” (not the Eighteen Truths). Ritual conversion required, amongst other things, circumcision and was concluded with immersion; following immersion the convert was “born again as a Jew.”

These are a few of the examples I came across (new truth!) that helped me put aside nagging vestiges of WCG doctrinal baggage.

(Note: rabbi, Judaism, etc, were words of convenience; in the first century these terms were anachronisms.)

When I first saw the first graphic on the PCG website,I felt it was just begging for this… And to borrow another line from the Simpsons, “If Flurry sues, we’ll claim Fair Use…”

*Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. -John 14:6

This includes Gerald Flurry and the other “wannabee apostles”

March 4, 2013

Childrearing with Dave Pack

More from “Hoss”

In the flurry of blog activity over Dr T’s CCOG, accusations were flying about. I wanted to verify some statements attributed to David Pack, which were found near the end of a typically long sermon. Along the way, Dave went into a mini-tirade on child-rearing. Inspired by his remarks, I wrote this little story, loosely based on a story in Luke:

The church service had just finished.

A couple and their son were still sitting, quietly talking, when an elder approached. He solemnly informed the parents that the minister must speak to them immediately. Leaning over toward the father, he quietly said, “about the parking lot matter”.

The minister apparently was told of a small incident that had occurred in the parking lot at end of the Feast. While the couple and their extended families were packing their cars in preparation to head home, they noticed their son was not there. Thinking he was with some of the other children, they at first thought nothing of it. After all, he was a very responsible child.

But when they other families were ready to leave, he wasn’t to be found. After another quick search, they headed back to the conference center where the Feast had been held. They soon found their son, looking through some of the ‘free literature’ and talking with some ministers from Headquarters who were milling about.

Trying not to draw too much attention, they called out to the boy, telling him they were about to leave. “If you don’t mind”, he politely answered, “I have a few more questions I’d like to ask these gentlemen”. One of the minsters told the parents how pleased they were that the boy was reading the literature and asking thoughtful questions. Another minister said, “I wish there were more children who took such an interest in the Truth!”

Now back to the church. The elder and the couple waited as the minister attended to another matter. As the minster turned to the couple, the elder scurried off toward the crowd at the Pot Luck table.

The minister turned and gave the couple a menacing stare. “What’s this I hear about your rebellious son?” he demanded. “Before making a decision on what action must be taken, you tell how you dealt with him.”

After glancing at each other in disbelief, the couple told the minister what had happened. The minister interrupted in a raised voice, “And how did you punish him?”

The father replied that their son had not really done anything wrong. It appears he had mentioned to someone where he was going, but the message wasn’t passed on.

“That doesn’t matter! Your son is at a rebellious age and will use any excuse to disobey you! You have take children and break their will! Haven’t you studied our booklets and articles on God’s way to raise children?” Yes, they had read the Church literature, and believed they provided proper parenting.

The mother quietly added that she felt some of her questions their son raised were quite profound, and stuck in her mind. “So!” the minister retorted, “You listen to your son questioning our doctrines! What can a child understand? He should only think about doing what he is told without question!”

Turning toward the father, the minister continued, “As for correct understanding, he should have asked you, and you should have given him the answer from the Church’s lessons for children. If that wasn’t enough, you should have asked me!” Looking around the room as if searching for something to yell at, the minister asked, “And as for wasting the time of our Headquarters ministers, do you realise how that makes you look as parents?”

A deacon, pointing at his watch, caught the eye of the minister. “I’ve got to go”, he scowled, ”but this matter isn’t over”.

As the couple turned to leave, the minister called out, with a false tone of cheerfulness, “I’ll see you at Spokesman’s Club, Joe, and you’ll get my decision. And I’ll talk to you again at Ladies Club, Mary.” The couple smiled and walked back to their son Joshua.

And Cogwriter’s video on parenting (which I haven’t watched) was purely a coincidence. I wrote the above story a few weeks ago…

Hoss

February 24, 2013

"RCG Fruits" and More!

The following contribution is

by “Hoss Cartwright”

Dear Painful Truth,

After seeing articles like “RCG Fruits” and critiques on the latest singularity in the COG universe, I came up with this –

– To the tune of the Stonecutters song, The Simpsons, S06E12.

Who has all the doctrines right,

Who has the most well hit website?

We do! We do!

Who has the best Alexa score,

Who beats those who came before?

We do! We do!

Who says watching football’s bad,

Who says birthdays make God mad?

We do! We do!

Who proves all the others wrong,

Who has the best clone of Armstrong?

We do! We do!

We do! We do!

httpv://youtu.be/_ZI_aEalijE

James,

Thanks for the invitation to share some experiences. Also, another little ditty…

There is a saying, If you’re not confused, you’re not paying attention. Perhaps this is why I have no bad memories of my WCG days. Probably the strongest words a minister said to me came as a stinging critique of my first Spokesman’s Club speech, or during a sports event. (The aggressiveness of some ministers could lead one to write Should a Christian minister play basketball?).

Far worse were my religious experiences at home – my father’s family was strong German Catholic, my mother’s was anti-Catholic Scottish Protestant. I was the child brought up Catholic, to first communion and confirmation. Then one Sunday after summer vacation overseas I was told we’re all going to my mother’s church. I refused to go and got a one-week reprieve, but from the next Sunday, I had to attend Sunday school, services, fellowship, membership classes, outings, the works. My father’s decision to leave Catholicism and forcing me to join a Protestant church had more lasting impact than Joe Senior’s dismantling of HWA’s core doctrines.

The first time I heard GTA on radio, he was doing a “Panorama of Prophecy” series – a few months after a friend showed me a book about Nostradamus. The WCG did lead me to solving my Catholic/Protestant problem; when I left home I became a member.

My post-WCG enlightenment was realizing the poor, downright sloppy scholarship of HWA, Dr Hoeh and others. I never joined a splinter – each seemed to be based on being a “true” successor to HWA, along with many of the mistakes. I got involved with a Jewish community, and discovered the faulty premises of HWA’s exegesis. Instead of reading Rupert, Allen, and Mein Kampf, Herb should have used the Talmud in his research.

Reading stories in the Painful Truth, it is appalling to learn what some have suffered in their WCG and splinter experiences. So why do I stay involved in discussions of HWA and things of the past, which I personally survived unscathed? Perhaps it’s the same dreadful fascination we hold for things like Hitler and the Nazis. Or, as why George Bernard Shaw said he liked to listen to Brahms: To remind myself how bad he was.

In my Catholic days, I used to joke about Long Mass, Short Mass, and “Very Short Mass” – which I said consisted only of collection. “Collection” of course meant collecting money once or twice during mass. It’s interesting that the tithing doctrine finds itself in Catholic, Protestant and Cult groups; it’s one “Jewish” law that Christians keep but Jews don’t. When I started attending WCG services, stories were circulating about the infamous intellectual “Dr Martin” – but I didn’t know about his tithing research until years later. And to think that Joe Tkatch proclaiming the abolition of the triple tithing doctrine was meant to increase church income…

A blog author mentioned that Bob Thiel might get contributions from “a wandering Armstrongite”, which inspired this parody:

A Wondering Armstrongite I

– to the tune of the first ten lines of A wandering minstrel I, from The Mikado, Gilbert and Sullivan.

A wondering Armstrongite I

Of mind in tatters,

Unsure of just what matters,

And if and to whom I should tithe…

And if … and to whom I should tithe!

The list of COGs is very long,

Of every doctrine ranging,

With only one not changing,

To whom I must send my tithe!

To whom … I must send my tithe!

I’ve looked at Gerry, Ted, and Ron,

(Both Dart, and Weinland)

Wherever I could find them,

Of course they will tell you to tithe!

Of course… they will tell you to tithe!

Then there was Rod and Dick, and Dave,

And now I’ll visit Bob T,

The latest Herbert proxy,

Who says I can send him my tithe!

Who says … I can send him my tithe!

And then one day it dawned on me

That I could form my own COG,

With bank account and web log,

So now you can send me your tithe!

So now … you can send me your tithe!