What is Freedom?

Right off the bat, I don’t think anyone can really define freedom. Questeruk posed an interesting dilemma, when I stated that “freedom is the absence of absolute knowledge”. Questeruk then stated that God is both absolute and free.

I found this response interesting because that is what Ernest Martin said when I discussed the matter with him.

Ernest Martin was a brilliant man, but there were three basic flaws in his conclusion:
1.We can’t prove there is a God
2.We have great difficulty in defining “absolute”
3.We have the same problem with “freedom”.

This leads to yet another problem: how can anything be both “absolute” and “free”?

If it is absolute, the very absolute itself would provide a limit to what could be done beyond that absolute. If it were free to select otherwise, the limitation of choice itself would not be absolute.

Dr. Martin responded to me then that freedom is like a length of rope or “tether” to which we are bound. To the extent we can move within the length of that tether, we are free, but we are NOT free to move beyond the length of that tether.

I said, “That’s all well and good, but now tell me how long the tether is. Can you define the limits?”

There was a man named Georg Cantor who once believed that God would reveal himself to Cantor if he, Cantor, studied into the nature of infinity and was able to offer definitions.

The problem was, Cantor began to realize not only infinity, but an infinity of infinities! Even worse, in trying to list all “real numbers” by the use of a diagonal method, he showed that it was impossible to do so. The list would always remain incomplete.

A “real” number corresponds to what is also called “irrational numbers”, like “pi” the square root of 2, 3, etc.

The Euclidean line is said to contain an infinity of points, each corresponding to a number within the infinite continuum. One problem: where is the point corresponding to “pi”, and the square root of 2, etc? Not only did there appear to be gaps in the Euclidean line, but the number of gaps seemed to be infinite.

Pythagoras was rather disturbed by this fact when one of his students showed there was a problem with his theorem, A squared plus B squared equals C squared.

Pythagoras’s student said, “Sir, what if ‘C squared’ is ‘2’? What is the square root of 2?” Legend has it that Pythagoras had the student drowned to keep his mouth shut.

So, in the most formal system of proofs we have, there doesn’t seem to exist a process that contains all the other facts within that process which is non-contradictory, or which can be summed up in a “rational” statement(the ratio between two numbers).

So, it seems impossible to define “absolute” as a point beyond which human knowledge cannot go, which would appear to show that we are “free’ to choose among an infinite set of alternatives which we can define. But then, if we can’t define those alternatives, we cannot choose among them.

Among all the infinity of alternatives, therefore, we can’t define “God”, because “God” would therefore be the sum of those alternatives. We can’t even list all real numbers, much less define God! Any attempt to define God would naturally result in the infinity of alternatives we see around us today.

You can’t define a procedure to get from “here” to “God”, because you would first have to define limits as to what God is, and that would place God within the measurements of calculus, since calculus seeks to define the number of steps or “decisions” approaching a limit.

Of course, algorithms follow this process by which we define decisions or decision procedures to “terminate” at a certain limit or goal. Regarding truth as one complete, consistent system of thought, might be a useful idea of either “God” or “absolute”, but Alan Turing demonstrated there is simply no way by which a computation can prove all such truth(s), as did Godel’s theorem.

If you seek to define ‘freedom’ therefore, you must define it strictly within the context of human definitions. It cannot in any sense be applied to God, since there is no evidence of the existence of God.

That, basically is what Paul told us. If there exists a God, any decisions procedures by which we may hope to get “there” would be completely subject to that God and with “God’s” knowledge.

If there is such a decision procedure, that procedure is programmable, which means it can be reduced to human concepts and ideas, which means that “God” is therefore either created by, or creatable by, human ideas. It would necessarily mean that “God” is less than man.

On the other hand, to believe in God is to believe that there does exist knowledge and truth that transcends the knowledge of men. That, in essence, is what Godel’s theorem tells us: truth transcends theoremhood. Truth exists as a context of completeness and consistency beyond the power of humans to regulate or measure in one system.

Does truth exist in such a complete and consistent form? If it does, we can’t get there from here.
Does God exist as the sum of truth? If “He” does, we can’t get there from here.

Paul’s statements in Romans 8 and 9 are fully consistent with that fact.

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No One Has "Spirit of Christ?"

Corky continues to privde excellent fodder for a bit of intellectual cud chewing.

Does anyone today have “the spirit of Christ”, of the “Holy Spirit”? Even if there is a chance they did, it would be impossible to prove, so the argument would be similar to the atheist’s argument concerning God. Since there’s no evidence of such a being, we can safely conclude that no one possesses any spirit of God, or spirit of Christ, or Holy Spirit today.

Corky brings up a solid point regarding Romans 8:7 Might as well quote it to get into the “spirit” of things.

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be”.

And Corky quotes the next compelling statement: “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the spirit of Christ, he is none of his”.

But who exactly is Paul referring to here? Who is “ye”? The qualifying statement here is “IF so be that the spirit of God dwell in you”.

Notice also just below that in Romans 8:11: But IF the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you…”

Qualifying statements that lack definition. Paul refers to “IF” and then refers to “WE”, as he writes about the “spirit of God” or the “spirit of Christ”.

How would we even begin to possibly identify these people? IF the natural mind is enmity against God, what possible process would we use to know who is the “we” to whom Paul refers?
If you took my word for it, how would you know I was telling you the truth? If I took your word for it, how would I know for sure, since our natural minds are enmity against God? How could I possibly prove that “you” somehow have knowledge that “I” don’t possess?

Corky gives pretty much the correct answer: you can’t know. There is no way of knowing. And even if someone told you truly that he had the “spirit of Christ”, it would be meaningless to you in any certain, definable terms.

If you follow Paul’s argument from this point and you believe he’s going to say, it’s a matter of free will choice, you will be disappointed, because in verse 20 he begins:

“For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope.”

Notice then that Paul refers to “ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the spirit…”

Paul writes of a group having “firstfruits of the spirit”, and Corky seems to agree in principle with this by saying that if anyone claims to have the “spirit of Christ’ he’s a liar. I’ll agree with that, except to say that, from any possible proof he might offer, he’s VERY PROBABLY a liar.

Of course, if he told me, “I have the Holy Spirit, and you must follow me”, I could say with authority, “You’re a liar”.

This is so because, as Corky pointed out in quoting Romans 8:9, the big word is IF. And how do we know who is in possession of this “spirit”?

Well, Paul gets to his big “gotcha!” in Romans 8:29-30:

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be comformed to the image of his son….”

So how do you know if “so be that his spirit dwell in you”? You don;t, since God seems to be the only one who makes the choice.

Paul closes off all avenues. First he says the natural mind is enmity against God and cannot be subject to God’s laws, and then he takes it to the conclusion that God foreknows, predestines, calls, and glorifies his children. And to top it off, he knew who they were from the very beginning(Ephesians 1:4).

So, where is the “free will” or freedom in that? There is only one possible freedom that can be gained from it. You are free from the proposed religions of all humans. Paul’s logic completely cancels all possibility, not only of you knowing by your process of reason which is the true church, but even if you could, God already knows who they are! Consequently, as Corky points out, you must be free of all religions!

In other words, any choice you make will simply be your choice, and that’s the very best you can say about it. If you get a bunch of people to agree with you and they give you a lot of money, I applaud your salesmanship, but I’m not going to be following you, because I know better.

Paul declares this freedom from men in Romans 8:33: “Who can lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth“.

Who ARE God’s elect? Nobody knows! Nobody CAN know! Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable, by any standard you wish, to say, “I am born of God”, and no government can say otherwise!
You’re free from men and from the governments and religions of men!

You think not? Prove to me there is no God. You can’t! I can’t prove there is one, so, all I have to do is say I believe in God, and you cannot say other wise except by legalizing your authority with the force of arms, “mobocracy“.

I am not bound to any humanly organized religion because Paul says it’s impossible to know which is the true religion, and God does the choosing anyway. Jesus says if any man says “Here is Christ, or there, believe it not”, so I don’t have to accept anybody’s statement that s/he represents God.

1 Corinthians 7;23: “ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men”
1 Corinthians 9:19: “For though I be free from all men…”

1 Corinthians 10:29: “…why is my liberty judged of another man’s conscience?”

Colossians 2:8 “beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ”.

“After Christ”? What did he teach? Not to follow any man who said “here is Christ”. No point in it, because you couldn’t prove it if he did serve Christ.

Col. 2:16: let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, of of the sabbath days”.

Oh, and here’s one for the “nice” people: “Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind”.

Col 3:3: ”

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God”.

Dead? No law can punish a dead man, neither human law nor God’s law. That’s total habeas corpus. No law can “have the body”.

In terms of liberty, freedom, and free will, there is only one correct choice you can make: freedom from men, freedom from the ideas of men, freedom from the religions of men, and freedom from the governments of men.

How do you choose freedom from “God’s will” when you can’t even prove there is a God?

Answer me that.

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Corky’s Excellent Points

Again, I’m not picking on Corky, but pointing out that he actually does elevate the whole discussion to a level wothy of dialogue. And his points are excellent. Good, well reasoned responses to get folks to reach for that higher level of understanding.

Of course he and I don’t agree, but that’s what intelligent discussion is all about. It’s about growth, learning, dialogue and sharing.
The points Corky makes that really intrigues me is in regard to government and law. For example, he points out that the Sadducees urged the people to submit to Roman law, not to revolt, but to have patience, that the “zealots” were the ones that usually caused trouble.

In fact, the Sadducees were not well thought of by the general population of Israel. They were considered the Quislings of the Roman government, puppets who ruled simply by the permission of the Roman Empire.

Even worse were the publicans, or tax collectors, who were generally lumped together with “sinners” in the New testament. Jesus associated with “publicans and sinners”.

In fact, Jesus told his followers in Matthew 18 that, if a person didn’t want to settle matters within the peaceful and non-vengeful treatment of the church or community, that person was to be shunned as a “gentile or tax collector”. Not much of a statement in support of Sadducee government.

Pharisees, on the other hand, in spite of their general legislative popularity, were condemned as “Hypocrites!”. Jesus said to call no man rabbi, and rabbis were Pharisees. Even though they sat in Moses’ seat, they were not to be called “rabbi’ or “master”. In fact, Jesus accused them of “taking away the key of knowledge” from the people. Pharisees said that certain among them, with proper training and discipline, could understand and define the law of God. Jesus said they were pretentious, that the “key of knowledge” was as much the property of the people as of the Pharisees, and Paul completely insulted them by saying that the natural mind cannot be subject to God’s laws, period.

The Sadducees were eliminated finally by the Pharisees, who waged “jihad” against the Roman Empire, only to see themselves scattered to the winds yet again. As Corky pointed out, the zealots gained absolutely nothing.

Why? because they believed something that simply wasn’t true. They were NOT God’s appointed representatives to establish God’s kingdom on earth. It was impossible for any human to claim that right.

And, neither are the “Christians” of today given that right, when you get down to it. If no natural mind can be subject to God, then it logically follows that no “natural” kingdom of God on earth can be established by human will. Can’t be done!

There is no “true church of God’ organized by any human, nor can there be. To assume there is, one would have to assume that his/her natural mind is the exception to the rule of Romans 8:7.

“I know Paul says that the natural mind cannot be subject to God’s law, but my mind is the exception, and I can decide otherwise”. Yeah, right. That’s pretty much the same attitude attributed to “Lucifer” in the Old Testament. “I will ascend into heaven, I will establish my will…” It’s also pretty much what the Pharisees stated, with the very best of intentions. They believed that their minds, with proper training and discipline, actually could be subject to God’s law, and they would represent God faithfully to the people. Jesus called them hypocrites, and Paul said it couldn’t be done. And so did Kurt Godel about 1900 years later.

Corky’s conclusions are correct except for one important point: the bible already pointed these things out.

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